Cold water angling injuries and the survival of caught and released muskellunge.

[Tony Scime]

These are the questions I need some answers to at tonight’s meeting, and which, along with other possible issues, will sway my vote:

1. Are a muskie’s immune systems and ability to heal injuries significantly compromised by cold water temperatures.

2. If so, if a muskie is injured during a cold water angling event - hook impalement, net abrasions, slime removal, fin splitting - is there reason to be legitimately concerned about that muskie’s ability to heal and survive long-term.

I may couch a question by comparing a muskie caught in warm water vs cold water and sustaining similar injuries. Given effective catch and release techniques, which fish is more likely to survive the injuries incurred by the angling event?

I know that there are hundreds of studies by fisheries scientists around the world addressing immunity and healing concerns for different types of fish in different types of environments. The pure number of such studies, all of which appear to accept the scientific concept that cold water temperatures severely suppress a fish’s immune systems and healing processes, suggests that these are issues of legitimate concern. None of these studies, however, concern muskies, and I haven’t found any which involve angling injuries sustained in cold water.

Although I’ve reviewed the studies I am not confident in by ability or qualification to adequately understand them. So I need guidance.

When I sought such guidance on my recent ill-advised foray into another web-site I was quickly shot-down by the likes of Larry Ramsell who advised me that it was all common-sense. Larry believes that because infectious diseases are not active in cold water, that it is a non-issue. I’m not really satisfied with Ramsell’s common-sense approach because it is inconsistent with studies which show that although a disease may not be active in cold water, neither is a fish’s immune and healing systems. They both become more active as the water warms - which provides a window of opportunity for infections to set in before the fish is able to heal.

I learned in my youth not to be afraid of asking questions which some might say are stupid or to which the answers are obvious. And I’ve never been afraid of looking stupid in the quest for knowledge. You might find that the so-called establishment is wrong. So never be afraid to question everything.

And if the answer to my query is that there is little risk (not no risk) of a muskie dying due to inadvertent injuries caused by cold water angling, I’ll be able to conscientiously support an extension. Otherwise, I will continue to struggle.

[Tony Scime]

It's always a question of allowing reasonable access to the fishery without unduly harming it. Determining the how and when of access are often difficult to ascertain. It's often a judgment call, hopefully based upon the best information we have available.

Closing the fishery November 1 would be better for the fishery, but in my opinion unduly restrain the opportunities of the fisherman.

The average drop in water temperature between Nov. 1 and Dec. 1 appears to be about 10 degrees (mid 50s to mid 40s).

We'll talk more about it tonight, but I have to go now.

Tony

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

  I'll see you at the meeting tonight! When calculating those water temps based on the water tempratures at the Buffalo Water Intake where the water is being pulled from the bottom of Lake Erie,will not show water trapped by winds again'st the outside walls on the South end or up the Coke Channel etc.. Those waters can also be 10 degrees either direction depending on,hours of sun,hours of no sun,rain,snow and wind pushed water temprature change and substained or changing wind direction.There are many varibles to water temp change on our end of Lake Erie,but until the deep waters of Lake Erie get colder then the waters infront and behind the walls of the Harbor the gizzard Shad schools are not showing and the following muskies are not going to be there either.So just as you say a season ending date of Nov 1st will be depriving fishermen the chance to fish incooler waters,well not having the 15 days of December Open is doing the same now!

[Carrie Keane]

Larry, this theory that everyone is arguing with you is out of control, I was simply telling Jojo that his theory regarding metabolism was correct.  I said nothing about injury to fish or changing the seasons in either direction. Not every post on this site is directed towards you.

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Anything said that is being said that is in support for keeping Nov 30th is of my intrest to comment on!

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Tony{None of these studies, however, concern muskies, and I haven’t found any which involve angling injuries sustained in cold water}

So then Prove it!!!

[Mike "the facilities" Fortunate]

Carrie, Tony.....in the words of larry "make them work" dont waste your time proving IT to him!!! He'll just come up with something else! Make larry work and find it for himself!

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Mike,Tony can not prove it and he knows it!

[Tony Scime]

I cannot prove that it's a problem. And I cannot prove that it isn't a problem. That's why I need more help. If we don't know the answer, which direction do we go?

We can look at the known science, and determine which scenario is most likely supported by the known science. But I can't say I have an answer to that, either. If I did, I wouldn't need to seek some guidance from the scientists.

And if they don't have any helpful guidance? We have to decide: do we error on the side of the fish or the fisherman? That may be the the question which will determine the future philosopy, policies, and purposes of this club.

And we may want to look at which direction fisheries with an extended season are going. Are they getting better, worse, or staying the same. Or maybe they're going in all sorts of directions. If we look at the St. Lawrence, only, it isn't good. But every fishery is different and may react differently. If I look at the west river, the area close to the NY side is doing well, but the rest of it is still mostly a musky wasteland. Does that have anything to do with Dec. 15? I don't really know.

Except I'm quite sure that if the harbor is ever fished with the concentrated pressure it experienced 10 to 15 years ago, that it would be a problem.

Except I do know that not extending the season won't hurt the musky. But it will hurt the anglers who want to fish in December in the East River and the harbor. Costs and benefits. Which scenario benefits the most anglers? Yikes. Too many questions. Lets be done with it one way or another.

And whichever way we go, it's ok with me. Somehow, someway, I think the muskies will survive us. But then again, maybe I'm wrong.

[John Pensyl]

When is a musky at its healthiest and most likely to be able to make it through an injury. The answer is certainly non mid June when they are starving and already injured from the spawn. Fish are at their weakest post spawn and most likely to succumb to injury. Things don't get any easier late summer, high water temps make any interaction with an angler a possible death sentence. Luckily we have learned to use heavy equipment keeping the fight short and saving many fish that probably wouldn't have swam away had the battle been any longer. I know these were the fish that swam away the slowest during the past two seasons. Fall fish on the other hand are finally recovered from the spawn. There injurys are healed, they've regained the weight lost while starving themselves to procreate and are at their most rotund and resilient. A fish that does receive an injury in the fall is a healthy fish that has the best shot at recovering from said injury. This is the same fish that may have succombed to the same injury just months prior. This is some of the reasoning used by biologists and authorties in the musky world such as Larry Russell to support late season angling. Lets not kid ourselves, our current seasons aren't what is best for these fish, they are whats best for the angler. If we were forced to limit the season to the safest 120 days of the year, what 4 months would you choose? Certainly shouldn't contain June or august.

[John Miller]

UGGHH,  as I read this thread I feel alot of aggrevation, primarily from hearing people talk as if they know something to be fact, when they do not.  When ectothermic fish (cold blooded) are living at the lowest ranges of their exceptable temperature range,they are less able to heal.  This, like Carrie suggests, is due to slower metabolisms or more specifically enzymes operating outside of their optimum temperature range.  Pathogens (viruses, bacteria, and funguses) are less active at lower temperatures but not non existent...there are cold water and cold water fish specific diseases.  They still pose a threat.  Some people are perpetrating that they know exactly how living organisms in an ever changing ecosystem will respond to a laundry list of environmental variables.  Sorry but dont be fooled....they don't know for sure.. they are speculating and acting as if they know these outcomes to promote their cause. Previous comments in this thread continue to state that an extension will not detroy the local musky fishery.  I dont recall hearing anyone say that an extension would destroy the fishery.  What has been said is that if there is more angling time (15 more days), then that equals more pressure on fish.  If just one adult female fish is stressed to the point of death (including post release mortality) then our fishery will suffer greatly.  YOY (young of year) catch rates are way down and continue to decline to even nonexistent numbers in historically productive areas.  It doesnt take a "cut" fish to lead to injury.  Slime removal, hook injury, ripped fins, time out of water in freezing temps, time on the floor of a boat (it happens I have seen it more than you'd think over the years) all lead to stresses that can cause a fish to die or lead to pathogens comprimising the fishes immune system.  All of these factors effect fish during the whole season, so why subject them to more of the same?  Let them over winter in preparation for the spring spawn.  I rather anglers not have the option to fish 15 additional days if there is less chance of loosing a large adult female.  Demise of the fishery?, probably unlikely, but negative impact on a struggling fishery with drastically reduced YOY recruitment, catch rates lower than past productivity, which happens to neighbor an urban community thus providing extremely easy access....well I for one think that all of this can have a negative impact on our fishery. It just takes one lost adult female.  It doesn't add up to me.  Why increase fishing time when recruitment is down?  Remember, we have a naturally sustaining WILD musky fishery here.  That should be coveted not taken for granted.  Error on the side of caution especially when none of us (including DEC, no offense) really know the possible impact of increased fishing presure in December. 

[John Miller]

pushing the entire season back a couple weeks has merit.  But I don't think that is the what the DEC is considering.  On the table is only the December 15th from what I understand.   The burden of proof lies on those in favor of the extension.  Please provide evidence of how an extension will be beneficial.  Also, lets not confuse the terms speculation and proof. Please do not read any negative tones into this comment because there aren't any. 

[John Pensyl]

It will be beneficial because it will reduce pressure from the most pressured part of the system. The season is already open until December 15th on our great lakes waters. I'd like to spread the existing fishing pressure out resulting in less likelihood of the same group of fish being caught repeatedly over a 2 week time frame. When I ask existing club members why they never explore the east river I hear the same excuses. Heavy boat traffic and floating weeds all summer and mud all fall.This is an opportunity to take pressure off the most heavily fished area of a fishery that also has the highest angler catch rate and spread it out to an area that receives little angling pressure all season long. I can tell you now that the majority of my fishing efforts next season will be focused away from the head of the river.