West River Nov 3rd

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Its official I guided a client in his boat today using TUBES! Patrick Beltz caught a nice 47 1/2" muskie! Cullen is also still on fire,he will tell you about his great day I'm sure!

[Stephen Glassic]

The trout are actually long gone. They say the derby is to thin out the population because there are too many musky for the ecosystem to support.  Most of the locals practice catch and release.  They have a law in the state that provides a hefty fine for transporting a live musky.  This is because there are a lot of other waters that have trout.  There are many miles of river and a lot of it has very little pressure due to the remoteness of some of the areas.  Much of it can only be fished in a canoe.  There are guides that do day trips.  Most of the fish are in the low to mid thirties with some reaching mid forties.

[Mike "the facilities" Fortunate]

John u wanna go thus summer we can be locusts! Lol

[John Miller]

I'm sorry but I can't get my head around Musky Inc. 69, a conservation club, being forced to make a hasty uneducated decision by the DEC.  It also makes no sense that the DEC failed to solicit the NMA's opinion on the extension especially since they share a long history of cooperating together.  I believe that Larry has alot of release data collected over the years for the MI club to consider, but he is FAR from a fisheries biologist. In fact Larry believes that muskies sink to the bottom of the Harbor and form some sort of "slime coat cocoon" to over winter in and that they dont eat again until spring. I think most of us understand that this concept is absurd and I only bring it up now to demonstrate that just because someone presents information as factual and they are passionate about it, does not mean it is in fact true. No offense Larry, I think you are a very knowledgable fisherman and you have done a great deal for the fishery. I just don't understand how you could say 15 more days of fishing would cause "zero harm" to the fishery. Any fishing is fishing pressure. It doesn't matter how much we try to care for them after netting, some fish will surely perish from the added stress of capture.  Freezing temps can freeze gills and eyes.  Big winds and waves of December complicate handling.  If you guys are catching 50's during November, then all is good. Let the population continue to rebound and there will be even more 50's in the future. Let's not forget that the Martin fish and Veiders fish were covered in a blood red hue. These fish did not look healthy to me. Not to take anything away from thier glorious catches....they were beautiful monsters in my eyes, but perhaps were sporting remnant signs of VHS?  I do not support an extension in the Harbour or the river.  We have plenty of time to fish them.  All good things come to an end....don't worry the season opens again next June.  I caution our club from extending the season just so they can fish longer.  A group of anglers already proved that the fish are accessible in November.  Go fish them in November and leave them alone to do what they do over the winter until the third Saturday in June.  It saddens me to see how many folks are even considering a season extension.  Just ask yourself "what is best for the fishery and the fish?"  Can anyone deny that leaving the fish to recuperate after a long season of getting hauled into nets by meat hooks is the best thing for these fish?  If there are fish that are seldom accessible to anglers, then in my opinion that is a good thing.

 

Extra fishing = extra fishing pressure      2 + 2 = 4

 

[John Pensyl]

John, with all due respect (and you know I've got a ton for you) every angler should have an opinion on the subject based on their personal experiences and time spent on the water. That initial info based on experience is far more valuable to the DEC than an opinion corrupted by "politics" and "facts". Sadly nobody has the perfect answer or knows exactly what is going on out there. A bunch of yes men changing their opinion that was based on first hand personal experience because of the "opinion" of a biologist helps nothing. For every Dr. Out there for there will be one against. If there was no dispute between "experts" the U.S. and Canada would have the same season dates and we would have no issue. The raw data that once was your unspoiled opinion based on your personal experience would be the most valuable to them in their ongoing research and decision making. As a man with a scientific background I'm sure you can see the value in that. I wish we had a baseline vote, I'd love to see how it changes throughout this process.

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Can anyone deny that leaving the fish to recuperate after a long season of getting hauled into nets by meat hooks is the best thing for these fish?Yes,I can agree to that statement if you actually were able to fish for those fish.The big lake muskies are not around being caught all year and most years never around in November either.The fish caught this November was because of a life time event,8" of snow then 58 mph South winds that pushed that cold surface water out in front of the walls.The gizzard shad followed the cold water push and the big muskies followed the food source.Once the winds pushed out of the NW the same area of water where we were catching fish went from 45 degrees to 49 degrees and became a dead sea after.Yes,there were 15 muskies caught under a wind induced water temprature change.But Yes,we could fish all of November and never catch one muskie,because they are not there.So if we got the season open 15 more days we are over stressing the fish we never caught the whole month before and they may not be there in those 15 days either if the water stays to warm and holds the gizzard shad out in the lake.In 2011 Mark S. and I found the gizzard shad and big hooks on the 2nd weekend of December in 50 ft of water off Wind Mill Point,in 46 degree water surface temp.As far as me saying that the Muskies slime up and go to the bottom and do not eat all winter,don't know where you got that from,I have always said they are eating machines until the water temp gets near freezing ,then they slowdown and spend longer periods of time laying in a dormat state for sometines more then a week or two not feeding,but they do feed all winter but not as often.I have caught muskies in the summer that had so much slime on them that their eyes were covered over and looked like a 1/4" of snot they had been laying so long.No hard feelings we all have different beliefs,but when you fish an area for as many years that I have some things just plain stand out and other things help you catch more fish when you keep good notes as well.I'm by no way a biologist and don't have any experience in that field at all,but I do have time on the water learning a lot about muskies here,almost 40 years,if I don't know time,place & how and sometimes why after that long fishing for them,maybe I should have quit before muskie number 2392 payed a visit to me boat this November!We hopefully will get some answers on March 5th.

[Carrie Keane]

To John Miller- very well put!

[Tony Scime]

John P:

I feel compelled that I must respond to a couple of things you've said:

"That initial info based on experience is far more valuable to the DEC than an opinion corrupted by "politics" and "facts". 

To deny facts which overwhelmingly condradict opinions based upon experience is irrational. There are a lot of personal opinions based upon time on the water. They tend to go every which way. Facts, at least the ones we can establish, are the only basis upon which we can make rational decisions. The DEC relies on established "facts" as best they can, and not on all the differing and contradictory opinions which are often thrown their way.

I'm not too sure what you mean by "politics", even though it's probably related to a subsequent quote:  

"A bunch of yes men changing their opinion that was based on first hand personal experience because of the "opinion" of a biologist helps nothing."

In regards to the above, I'll just give my best "opinion based upon my many years of experience" with the parties involved. It is my opinion that it is premature to conclude that there ever were any "yes" men, or that the DEC personnel changed their opinion about a season extension, or that the DEC ever initiated a discussion with Muskies Inc regarding a season extension.  I really don't believe that any of that ever happened. Ultimately the real "facts" (if I'm willing to give them any weight) may prove my opinion wrong. If the "facts" show that my opinion was wrong, I'll change my opinion. In the meantime, I'll wait until we hear from the DEC at our March meeting and will try not to slander or disrespect anyone.

There's something I learned at a very young age. When considering the credibility of information, you always have to know its source. It's a concept we apply in law constantly.  

Tony

[John Pensyl]

I agree 100% Tony, but the DEC already had all of our facts. They have access to all of our data, they have access to all of their own data. Don't you think they could use some new data? Angler opinions and angler feedback based on experiences on the water will weigh very heavily on how they make their decisions. I'm doing my best to base my opinion on what I've experienced while fishing. My opinion on the harbor is based on what I know about fish and how they respond to structure, temp breaks and bait congregations, man influinced or otherwise. For me to base my opinion on your or Larry's experience would be redundant, they already have your opinion and you experienced it first hand. I believe fish follow food and water temps that best suit them in large bodies of water. I believe this to be true and applicable no matter where you go. I believe muskies that feed on perch and shad will probably follow the perch and shad. Our best oppournity to target theese large preditors is when and where the bait congregates. I apologize if my opinion is based on experiences on lake Ontario, the lower niagara and the bar but it seems as tho the same principals apply. Just another opinion.

[33sjfo56qd2lf]

John P.,

Don't be mad at when I say this, but read Tony's post again.  

The section where he states.... "Facts, at least the ones we can establish, are the only basis upon which we can make rational decisions. The DEC relies on established "facts" as best they can, and not on all the differing and contradictory opinions which are often thrown their way."

Personally, I would rather the DEC base decisions on factual data at this point since there has a been such a decline.  Your opinion could be right John P and then again it could be wrong.  If the DEC took your opinion instead of facts, and you were wrong, we could possibly never recover.  I love our fishery so much that I personally do not want decisions to be made irrationally.  I know you can understand that man.   

The next meeting will be a lot of fun.  I just hope we can all maintain the passion we have on this subject into the next meeting and do so in a way that respectful to other members views and feelings.

[John Pensyl]

I read it kaz, and like I said, they have the facts. Now its time to decide what to do with those facts. Which is where judgement and opinion comes in to place. Obviously there is difference among experts in interpreting the facts or the seasons would be the same throughout the great lakes. Why the fishery declined isn't based on fact, but expert opinion. Why has the Niagara recovered? Has it recovered? I bet guys who put in over 100 hours with little to show for it might not think so.   Take the catch data away from 5 anglers and catch numbers from this past season are dismal. Put 30 boats outside the harbor when the fish are around and active and all of the sudden its recovered? The only fact we have is less fish are being caught in the buffalo harbor than in the past and we aren't finding young of the year muskies there anymore. Maybe they found new spawning grounds? Maybe they found a new hangout? Maybe they are on the brink of extinction? How do we measure the population of lake erie muskellunge? By catch rates? The only time they are caught is when December like conditions present themselves and with less ideal conditions and 1/25th the anglers targeting them the best we can hope for is 1/25th the numbers. What is fact?

[John Pensyl]

You gotta admit, my yammering is definately drawing some attention to the forgotten harbor. Some passion is coming out of the woodworks!! "Scott the crew is fired up! Let's pick a project and march to the harbor".

[Scott McKee]

As I stated at the conclusion of our February meeting, if the DEC and fisheries biologists conclude the removal of the connection between the main current at the head of the River and the Black Rock Canal are responsible for the decline in musky young-of-the-year samples and therefore overall musky spawning success in the Canal, I think re-establishing that connection may be our most productive and attainable initial project to pursue. 

This will require a lot of work.  We’ll need to form a committee complete with plenty of warm bodies who are willing to dedicate their time and effort to accomplishing any enhancement / restoration project.