West River Nov 3rd

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Its official I guided a client in his boat today using TUBES! Patrick Beltz caught a nice 47 1/2" muskie! Cullen is also still on fire,he will tell you about his great day I'm sure!

[33sjfo56qd2lf]

You said it John.

John: "I'm asking for the same opportunity that was available when these regulations were put in place. With the changes in the system and the current mindset of the modern musky angler our regulations are outdated."

Adam: The reason the opportunity is no longer available is because THEY WERE OVER FISHED JOHN.  Do I really need to tell you that?  You just admitted this was for personal gain.  I'm going to remind you for 3rd time now.... a 3rd.... that we are a conservation club.  Is it really that hard to understand? 

Taking conservation to an extreme John?  Because I'm against people promoting slamming a declining fishery, through season extension proposals, proven by numbers provided by conservationist musky anglers in this club.   You providing information to club on numbers of fish caught, was not a contest John... but data, for the NMA and DEC to analyze in order to help the fishery.  I feel you don't know that you joined a conservation club. I didn't know that fighting for conservation of muskies, which is the club your a part of, was something you considered extreme is if I am going too far?  Maybe you should consider the reasons you are a member of the NMA.  Is it for conservation?  or is it for other reasons?

[Mike "the facilities" Fortunate]

Adam you are 100% correct! The nma is a conservation club!!! And anyone that agrees with the extension does not have conservation in mind! And maybe they shouldn't be in a conservation club, but just a fishing club instead!

[John Pensyl]

Were the gizzard shad over fished Adam?? Were the emerald shiners overfished?? Why don't they use the harbor on a regular basis in November anymore?

[33sjfo56qd2lf]

Are you still really rebutting this when you are an NMA member?  Are you saying you are promoting conservation of the Buffalo harbor with this petition?

[33sjfo56qd2lf]

If you are saying you promote conservation of the declining musky fishery, referring to Buffalo harbor, by extending the season, then you must also believe that 1+1=4.   Because you are being hypocritical and as Steve Glassic would say...... A Benedict Arnold, being that you are a member of this club.  And yes Steve that.... would be the proper context for using that analogy. 

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

First of all Muskies Inc. is the Oldest Muskie Conservation Club in the U.S.A. was responcible for Catch & Release, Stocking , Habitat Restoration and Muskie Education that has envolved today.The NY N.I. Chapter 69 objectives are the same as the NMA when it comes to Muskie Education & Muskie Conservation.We took one position as a membership that the season needed to move with the adjusting ecosystem.That did not change how any of us feel about muskies,how to handle them with care,how to educate others about how fragile muskies really are etc.So please do not say the NY M.I. Chapter 69 is not a Conservation Club.The NY M.I. Chapter 69 was formed to take care of the Inland Stocking Program needs at Prendergast Hatchery and to educate the general public on the needed safe handling of muskies on those Inland Waters.I'm sure over time there will be a different position,not the 15 days of cool water in Dec,that the NMA will take a different position then we will on another subject.That doesn't mean we should get to the point where both clubs are not trying to work together on the bigger picture,Better Muskie Fishing for All in the Future!

[John Pensyl]

What I'm saying is that if the bodies of water in question are healthy enough to fish June 15- November 30th than they are healthy enough to fish during the first two weeks of December. I truly and honestly believe and my thoughts are backed by many others far more versed in the subject that the additional 2 weeks of catch and release fishing will prove to have near zero impact on the future musky population. I joined this club because it was conservation minded, preaching proper catch and release can only help to improve all fisheries and not just ours. I liked the idea of promoting the fishery and helping new anglers. Now I feel like we only promote to a select group whom we see fit. Adjusting seasons to adapt to changes does not make you any less of a conservationalist, but ignoring these changes and refusing to acknowledge them might. What do you think I joined the club for? The free smitty bait?

[Tony Scime]

Hi guys:

1. Muskies Inc. is a conservation organization. A great history of promoting and enhancing muskie fisheries, albeit mostly on stocked fisheries, which I believe must be managed differently than natural self-sustaining fisheries (which are quite rare in the US outside of the Great Lakes).

2. The NMA is both a conservation club and  a fishing club. The challenge has always been to find a balance between those competing purposes. I don't think they're necessarily mutually exclusive. Part of the management of the fishery includes setting appropriate seasons which should allow access to the fishery without unduly harming it.

3. I'm not vehemently opposed to a December 15 closing (the fisherman in me), although I don't think it is in the best interest of the fishery (my conservation side). For many of the reasons articulated by Larry, I don't believe it will have a significant impact (but that doesn't mean no impact). Any fishing, if you're catching fish, can have a negative impact, although it might be slight. It's all a matter of degree (pun intended). I still think it would be irresponsible to vote on the issue without first hearing from the DEC. I want to know why fisheries scientists as knowledgeable and experienced as Steve LaPan believes it is necessary to close the St. Lawrence on November 30th to protect that fishery. Why does LaPan believe that December 15th is harmful to the St. Lawrence? I'm a bit mystified as to how Muskies, Inc could vote on this issue without first investigating those concerns. After all, they are also a conservation club and should have looked at both the fishing and conservation sides to the issue.

3. I can live with a December 15 closing if that is what the membership wants. But I think our decision should be based on real and not imaginary considerations. To be frank, I think this whole argument that a change in water temperatures makes the fish less likely to be in the harbor than when they used to be is, to be diplomatic in terminology, bunk. I think my January article supports that conclusion. I'm now outlining the temperatures solely for the last ten day of November from 1994 to 2012, and the catches for those dates. I'll publish those findings in the March newsletter. The conclusion is still that this whole water temperature theory is bunk, even if we use a temperature of 46 degrees. There are just as many muskies caught above that temperature as below it. Hell, the fact that some anglers are still experiencing success during November (even if it's outside of the walls) suggests that we do not need to fish in December to catch large muskellunge. We just have to fish for them. The fact that they are not accessible every day is nothing new. That's how it always was.

4. I don't believe that any significant regulation changes should be based upon undocumented hearsay unsupported by any credible evidence. That is exactly what Muskies, Inc. did. I just don't understand it. Anybody can say anything about anything. That doesn't make it true. Positions must be supported by empirical evidence to be credible and to be given any real weight. Otherwise the integrity of the decision making process, and of the ultimate decision, is questionable.

5. All the evidence is that the Buffalo Harbor does not support the muskellunge population it once did. There are not thousands of phantom muskies swimming around Lake Erie, that due to a slight increase of water temperature no longer come in to the Buffalo harbor. Because the population is down, Buffalo Harbor muskies are more difficult to catch - that is the only reason. Extending the season to December 15 will provide us with 15 more days to try to catch one of these potentially large muskellunge. Our only concern should be whether or not this extended season would unduly harm the fishery. I understand Larry's and John's position on this point, and don't necessarily disagree. Although I think that if I'm wrong and numbers of big fish are caught, there will be increased pressure which could have a greater negative impact than anticipated. Then I would fear not being able to close the door.

6. But before we do anything we must find out what concerns the DEC may or may not have. That is what fishing/conservation clubs do, I think. And I also believe that most fishing/conservation clubs, when in doubt, error on the side of conservation. But maybe that's just my opinion (although that's what the NMA has always done).

Tony 

[33sjfo56qd2lf]

John,

The harbor is not healthy enough.  NMA numbers provided by the NMA show that.  The river is healthy enough, but not the harbor.  I would like to see it bounce back and it's not going to with out a plan, which the NMA has thought long and hard about, far before you were a member, believe me.   This topic has been a discussion for a long time.  I have been just as mad about the harbor as the next guy.

Larry,

Who has more data about the harbor declination? Would it be Muskies Inc or NMA?  We both know it would be the NMA.  Muskies Inc doesn't have data on the declination of the harbor.  You yourself know the harbor is in decline because you are a harbor master man.  I know your not going to deny that the harbor is in a decline?  Why are you pushing to extend the season for harbor when its hurting?

Have the numbers of fish caught come down due to water temperature?  The answer to that is also no.  Scott Kitchen and Scott McKee have both discussed this and shown numbers of fish caught based on water temperature.  Even your blog Larry shows 4, 50 inch fish caught last year in 47 degree water temperature, when in 2009 it was the same conditions and no 50's were caught.

So, what good comes from fishing to December 15th besides giving you the ability to fish the harbor longer?  A part of the fishery that is proven to be in a decline?  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but you should answer this question.  What good comes from extending the season when the harbor is in a decline?

This question deserves an answer worthy of me voting on extending the season, and other people in the NMA deserve answer to that as well.   The answer should not be, "so we can catch more 50's", because that would be an incorrect answer to helping the harbor bounce back man, and that's all I have been saying.   Would I love to be able to fish the harbor later? Yes I would.  Should it be aloud when the harbor has been destroyed?  I have to still say no.

[33sjfo56qd2lf]

I agree with Tony's post.  The harbor is in a decline.  I can't see the DEC saying it is going to be ok to extend the date to December 15th based on current evidence.  But, in the event the DEC does state that it would have no effect, then obviously we would all want it extended.

What I would really like to see is some sort of plan formulated by the NMA and the DEC to help the harbor bounce back.  Habitat, or catching muskies from the harbor to create a great lakes hatchery for stocking.  This is also up for debate, but I am definitely in favor of stocking with muskies that come from Lake Erie.  Something needs to be done. 

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Adam, Actually I have more Harbor Data in my computer then the NMA does.I have been on the water up in the Buffalo Harbor fishing more days
per year then anyone since 1990. I have fished through all the changes and I'm well educated on what conditions bring muskies in to the Harbor and what some times moves them back out.I also know by water temp that you have a low or higher chance, you can't catch what has not shown up.I honestly believe 15 days of December will not stress the fishery at all.There are many conservation steps that can be done to help the fishery, habitat restoration brought up by Scott at the last meeting is a very good start.
By the way Tony , Cassleman thinks the fish left over after VHS are the heathiest fastest growing muskies he's ever seen! So I can't wait to hear Steve. Lapan's exlimation well.
At the time the NY M.I.Chapter 69 Voted the NY DEC was for a Dec 15th closing date.They changed to Nov 30th after we voted, I can't wait to hear why.Maybe if the NY DEC would have had the meeting they are having March 5th back before we were asked to give them an answer in 48 hours back in Oct last year, we would not be here at each other's throat!

[John Pensyl]

You can put all the muskies you want in the harbor and what is going to make them stay? There's nothing for them in there, no bait, nothing to draw bait. Why would a fish stay in there with nothing to eat when there is an all you can eat buffet out in the lake. Fisheries change, circumstances change. If the water was once a half degree warmer and held some color inside those walls than that alone would be enough to draw in some fish. Obviously it did, those muskies made the harbor their home as did lots of fish. Ask any local that grew up fishing inside those walls, fishing in general has declined, not just musky fishing, during the summer months especially. Sure its still hot in the spring when the sun warms the shallows first and fish come together to spawn, but after that its not what it once was. Yet lake Erie has never been better!(This is what I've been told after spending the last couple years talking to Grand Island locals about fishing)

There are too many variables to rely on the data from NMA catch rates in the harbor. Environmental variables and even more obvious is the lack of fisherman. Nobody fishes the harbor. Those that do have success there certainly don't share their info anymore. I have no doubts the fishery crashed hard, but measuring how well it has recovered with so many other variables in the mix is just shotty science. I know of more muskies caught by bass fisherman in may in the harbor then were caught by nma members this season. First thing any charter captain who fishes the gaps during the trophy bass season will tell you when you bring up musky fishing s that they know where the big muskies Hang out. Too bad they don't stay there all season. Reestablishing a resident population of muskies that roam the harbor all year would be amazing and the perfect goal to work towards as a group. In the mean time let's catch a few of these untouched giants that roam the open waters and pay the harbor a brief visit when conditions set up just right.

Our potential work as conservationalists will far outweigh any damage we can cause as educated catch and release anglers. I say we increase our efforts okn both ends, do our best to become better fisherman by exploring new possibilities and doing our best to understand how the system works and really start gearing up to make some positive changes for the long term future. Who knows, we may get the extension and then perfect conditions every fall for the next 3 years and still not catch fish. If that's the case nobody will be able to blame circiumstance anymore and we may get some serious help to reestablish the fishery. I just find it hard to not want to explore the possibility that we may be ignoring a whole new aspect to this fishery.