Cold water angling injuries and the survival of caught and released muskellunge.

[Tony Scime]

These are the questions I need some answers to at tonight’s meeting, and which, along with other possible issues, will sway my vote:

1. Are a muskie’s immune systems and ability to heal injuries significantly compromised by cold water temperatures.

2. If so, if a muskie is injured during a cold water angling event - hook impalement, net abrasions, slime removal, fin splitting - is there reason to be legitimately concerned about that muskie’s ability to heal and survive long-term.

I may couch a question by comparing a muskie caught in warm water vs cold water and sustaining similar injuries. Given effective catch and release techniques, which fish is more likely to survive the injuries incurred by the angling event?

I know that there are hundreds of studies by fisheries scientists around the world addressing immunity and healing concerns for different types of fish in different types of environments. The pure number of such studies, all of which appear to accept the scientific concept that cold water temperatures severely suppress a fish’s immune systems and healing processes, suggests that these are issues of legitimate concern. None of these studies, however, concern muskies, and I haven’t found any which involve angling injuries sustained in cold water.

Although I’ve reviewed the studies I am not confident in by ability or qualification to adequately understand them. So I need guidance.

When I sought such guidance on my recent ill-advised foray into another web-site I was quickly shot-down by the likes of Larry Ramsell who advised me that it was all common-sense. Larry believes that because infectious diseases are not active in cold water, that it is a non-issue. I’m not really satisfied with Ramsell’s common-sense approach because it is inconsistent with studies which show that although a disease may not be active in cold water, neither is a fish’s immune and healing systems. They both become more active as the water warms - which provides a window of opportunity for infections to set in before the fish is able to heal.

I learned in my youth not to be afraid of asking questions which some might say are stupid or to which the answers are obvious. And I’ve never been afraid of looking stupid in the quest for knowledge. You might find that the so-called establishment is wrong. So never be afraid to question everything.

And if the answer to my query is that there is little risk (not no risk) of a muskie dying due to inadvertent injuries caused by cold water angling, I’ll be able to conscientiously support an extension. Otherwise, I will continue to struggle.

[Joe Dolan]

I wish there was a way to like a post/comment on this site....because this post would surely get a like by me....spot on Tony!

--Joe

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

The same water temp conditions are present in November and having a in club tournament where the posability of more muskies being caught and possibly getting cut or bruised is there already,so your saying that 15 more days of open season durring possible 1 or 2 degree colder water is going to destroy the fishery.Yes, it is possible a muskie may get cut or scraped,not likely the way most of us handle the big girls with care.To be honest with you I believe those same muskies getting cut or bruised at the start of the season durring spawn or post spawn period could die easier from infection and stress in the warm water.So your saying the reason to not fish the 15 days of December is because someone might catch a muskie like they might through out the rest of the open season and painting a picture that those 15 days are harder on the muskies survival.The truth is that the 15 days of colder water of December would be easier for a muskie release because of increased oxygen levels in the water,more so then the whole rest of the muskie season that would have warmer water,the warmer the water the more decreased oxygen levels in the water.The 15 days of December are not going to Destroy the Niagara Fishery!

[Joe Dolan]

What I read in Tony's post is that he wants the to hear the thoughts of the DEC/Biologist on the health of a musky in the cold temps at the beginning of December.  If they agree that there is little to no harm, he will be for the extension.  However, if there is an argument by the DEC/Biologist that there is an added harm to the fish, they he will be in favor of keeping the season as it currently is.  These are also my beliefs.  I am for the extension as long as the DEC/Biologists that I speak to do not have any data to prove that it could harm the fish/fishery (hence why I have been saying that I am on the fence on this topic...until after our meeting tonight).

--Joe

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

 I might also add that catching & releasing muskies in colder water temps means the muskie has a better chance for surviving the event,muskies do not stress as easily as in warm water conditions.I have not fished the Buffalo Harbor the opening weekend for 8 years,only from October 15th to Nov 30th to avoid fishing there in high stress times.I did get out 3 times in Dec in Canadian Waters.I don't even fish Chautauqua Lake from late July through Labor Day because of water temps over 80 degrees.Yet some of the same people that are advicating that the 15 days of December are just to hard on the fish to fish then are fishing the Niagara River when the water temps are above 75 degrees in August.

[jojo wilczewski]

Good Day

I would think that since Muskys are cold blooded and there entire bodies metabolism slows down, that healing would take longer? Some cold blooded creatures do not have to breath in the cold, their metabolism slows so much?

I am a mad scientist? but far from a real one?

Hope we all have an enjoyable discussion tonight.

ALA BALA BALA jojoout

 

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

The 15 days of December may have weather conditions that keep you off the water for most if not all of the available days due to the high winds,waves and brown water that is the norm for that time of the year.Some years the last half of November can be high winds,big waves and brown water as well.So between those days we would have to hope the musky gods lineup the right condition of green tinted water that is cold enough to bring in the right forage base to also bring in the muskies.Well the last 5 years I have only caught muskies out in the lake,not behind the walls and they only show out there when all the conditions lineup.So the 15 days of December are going to make or break the whole fishery when you may not get out due to weather conditions,the muskies still might be way out in warmer deeper waters of Lake Erie and the number of boats out will be not many,there are no big number of boats out all of November the past 8 years.I and other fishermen purchase a fishing license to have a chance to catch & release the biggest muskie of our lifetime of fishing,that biggest fish will come from when the coldest water is present near the end of the season.Lake Erie has gotten warmer and those colder water periods are sliding to the right,the Lake doesn't and hasen't frozen solid for some years now,some years there were no Ice at all.The 15 days of December will not destroy the Lake Erie & Niagara River Fishery.But the continued pressure on all the muskies in the Triangle in Canadian waters Only for 15 days of December will make a more negative impact on that part of the river or maybe the whole fishery.Open up the Whole Niagara River,All NY Great Lakes Waters and All NY Inland Waters to Dec 15th and spread the muskie fishing pressure across all muskie waters in NY State!

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Tony: {And if the answer to my query is that there is little risk (not no risk) of a muskie dying due to inadvertent injuries caused by cold water angling, I’ll be able to conscientiously support an extension. Otherwise, I will continue to struggle.}

 

The whole rest of the muskie season ,opening day through the whole warm water period down to Nov 30th has more of a threat of a muskie dieing when caught and over stressed,then when the water temp is at its coldest point in those 15 Days! Hopefully tonights meeting will be orderly and everyone will get to say and ask questions to the NSDEC personel!

 

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Everytime you catch a muskie there is a possability that that muskie may die.We try to limit time out of water with safe handling and quickly back in the water for a successful release.The possability of a muskie dieing is there all year.So now because some want the chance to fish 15 more days when the water is colder the direction by some is that the muskies can't be released efectively to swim away and survive in those 15 days of colder water.Maybe we should all stop fishing altogether and get Aqua View Camera's and everytime a muskie lines up in the middle of your view,You Have A Catch!The 15 days of December will be less stressful on muskies then the rest of the season and I can't even remember the last time I had a muskie cut that came to my boat for a short visit.Some will report the most bleak outlook to push their position why not to fish 15 more days.Those 15 days in December have not hurt the St.Lawrence,Lower Niagara River,Detroit River or Lake St.Clair the last 10 years,I'm sure Only having the Canadian Side Open on the Upper Niagara River & Lake Erie has put Extra Stress on UN2 Muskies,when some of that pressure could have been spread across the Whole Fishery instead of Half!

[Tony Scime]

Larry:

Like I've said all along, you make some good points. Also, as I've previously stated, ten years ago I did not oppose extending the season in the upper river, just the harbor. Opening the east river would address the distribution of pressure concern.

I may be permanently scarred by what happened in the harbor (and I have to take my share of the responsibility), but I'm trying to be fair. The late fall fish include a higher percentage of the big spawners, so any mortality would have a disproportionate effect on future spawning success and recruitment. We need to safeguard these fish when they are most susceptible - late spring and late fall, without unfairly foreclosing reasonable angler effort. And yes, opening the harbor July1 would be a great step in the right direction - a trade-off I would consider if available. Even though with warmer springs it might not have as much of an impact.

I know you aren't a big fan of Angler Diaries, but catch rates on the Larry keep going down.

I'm really trying to be objective.

Tony

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

Tony,Catch Rates on the St.Lawrence River have gone down for the same reason as here,less angling hours by less fishermen on the water that are reporting the catch information. Just like here there are many more muskies caught & released on the St.Lawrence River that no one but a small group of select fishermen that fish that area enterchange pictures but not all make it to the public to view.Lake Erie also has some fishermen that do catch big muskies and those pictures are seen by a small number of other fishermen.I will admitt the numbers of pictures from November on the St. Lawrence River are not as many as the December pictures for the True Giant Muskies.Just like here the Big Muskies once were caught in Late October,then Early November,then late November,then the last week of November and now only when there is the right water temp conditions where colder water is pushed across the surface of Lake Erie and trapped up again'st the walls bringing in gizzard shad and muskies,that disapears as soon as the water temp goes back up in a day or two.The colder water season has slipped to the right and your saying that it is not ok to fish for what we use to fish for when the waters were colder then now,by moving ahead to stay with the changing ecosystem.You are correct on one thing,if only one change can be agreed upon,the Upper Niagara River needs to be Open on both sides! However I still do not see how the 15 days in December are going to destroy Lake Erie by being Open!

[Carrie Keane]

Jojo, you are correct anytime any organism's metabolism slows down, it takes longer for that organism to heal. I have taken several biology courses for my major and this is a recurring theme for all organisms not just fish/Muskies.

jojo wilczewski said:

Good Day

I would think that since Muskys are cold blooded and there entire bodies metabolism slows down, that healing would take longer? Some cold blooded creatures do not have to breath in the cold, their metabolism slows so much?

I am a mad scientist? but far from a real one?

Hope we all have an enjoyable discussion tonight.

ALA BALA BALA jojoout

 

[Capt. Larry D. Jones]

 You have to have a Cut fish first,even if your correct on healing time.Why don't we go to November 1st Season Ending just incase one of those November fish may happen to get cut durring the water period of time that is 1 to 2 degrees warmer. Lets not fish at all! Its harmful to the fish!